SEASON 2 EPISODE 1 with

Episode Transcript +

Can dogs be vegan?

A conversation with Wild Earth’s Ryan Bethencourt

Season 2, Episode 1

Guest: Ryan Bethencourt, CEO and Founder of Wild Earth

AARON KWITTKEN: Broadcasting from the 10 Hudson Square Building, home of WNYC Radio here in Soho, New York, welcome to Brand on Purpose, the podcast dedicated to uncovering the untold stories behind the most impactful purpose-driven companies.

My guest today is Ryan Bethencourt, CEO and Founder of Wild Earth, a biotech pet food company that uses plant and fungi-based proteins to help pave the way for environmental restoration, humane animal treatment and clean protein alternatives. In some ways, you could think about the company as the Beyond Meat of the pet food industry.

From Chief Science Offices, Ron Shigeta’s basement, to a Shark Tank deal with Mark Cuban, we’re going to talk about that as well, Wild Earth has continued to grow and innovate since it’s founding in August 2017, just two years ago.

With high carbon emissions from factory farms’ treatment of animals increasing ingredient contamination leading to food recalls, the pet food industry continues to be one of the leading factors in negative environmental impacts and increased risk in pet health. That’s where Wild Earth comes in. Alongside a team of scientists and veterinarians, Ryan started the company with a mission to change this negative foundation of the pet food industry into something far more positive.

So what’s really interesting about Ryan, actually, there are a lot of things that are interesting about Ryan, is that he’s also a very passionate biotech entrepreneur. He’s founded three different biotech companies over his career. He’s invested in over 100 companies, at this point. He’s helped now by his partnership at Silicon Valley VC firm Babble Ventures. Also a cofounder at Berkley Biolabs, Halpin Neurosciences, Countercultural Labs and Psuedo Room, Ryan has dedicated himself to the betterment of people’s and animals’ lives.

On top of that, Ryan also happens to be a vegan, I’m staring at him in studio right now. He’s 40 and he looks like he’s 20. He’s a proud dog dad, like me, and he’s passionate about pet and animal advocacy with a focus on helping developing sustainable and cruelty free pet food products. Ryan Bethencourt, welcome to Brand on Purpose.

RYAN BETHENCOURT: Thank you, and it’s an absolute pleasure.

AK: So, when you’re 80 years old, you will have developed, I don’t know, invested in 200 companies and you’ll look like you’re 50.

RB: Yeah, and hopefully, it’s exponential, so for me its like can I turn 100 into 1000 in ten years. That’s the vision.

AK: Oh, by then we’ll just freeze ourselves, right? And then come back in some form.

RB: Come back and it’s like, oh wow, these companies! They’ve transformed our world, this is great. It’s like green, forested jungled world with just a couple of mega cities in the middle.

AK: And everybody’s happy.

RB: Everyone’s happy, everything is sustainable, the species has come back.

AK: So, you have a really interesting background. I want to talk about the Mark Cuban Shark Tank thing, but, your background is in neuroscience. When I look at our LinkedIn profile, you have all sorts of different degrees and certificates. Son of Cuban immigrants, and you have done so many things. What led you to developing Wild Earth, and I should say that, and this is so of the moment, just yesterday there was a headline in USA Today, Can your Dog be Vegan? That quickly caught my attention.

RB: Yeah, it’s a very topical thing, I mean, I don’t think two years ago when we were starting Wild Earth, we could have predicted that Beyond Meat’s IPO would just create this intense interest in plant-based diets for humans. We’re now starting to see that with pets.

Originally the idea behind it was just both the health and the environmental impact of factory farmed meat, low quality of the meat that was going into the animal’s diets. I just thought we had to do something better. And as a biotech scientist I looked at this, Having been involved in a whole bunch of human food companies, so helping to get companies like Memphis Meats off the ground, Finless Foods, New Way Foods which makes plant-based shrimp, cell based meat companies like Shiok Meats, Memphis and Finless.

AK: And you’re a dog lover.

RB: And I’m a dog lover. Grew up with pretty much every animal you can imagine, as well. At one point in time, we had a monitor lizard, interestingly enough. That was very strange. It ate dog food, weirdly. Miami was very odd for just the amount of tropical type animals that were around. Obviously today, I would not have a monitor lizard because I don’t think it’s fair to the animal, itself.

But, yeah, I mean I was just really inspired to make a huge impact for the animals and I thought, “Let’s start with those that really transform our lives, personally.” In the US, 70% of households actually have a pet at home, but they count, and this is really shocking, they count for 30% of the consumption we consume in the US. One third.

So it’s a huge number and if we care about the environment, sustainability, and obviously the treatment of animals, especially those that are factory farmed, I was like, “Why is no one really tackling this challenge, at scale?” And so I was in the human food, I pitched a whole bunch of VC’s that I knew in Silicon Valley, and angel investors, most of them said, “No, they actually didn’t care about the pet space.” And that just made me more focused, actually, to really transform pet food for our best friends.

AK: Sure. How long have you been a vegan?

RB: I’ve been a vegan now for over 10 years.

AK: And did you start as a vegetarian and then move over to vegan?

RB: I did, I was actually a pescatarian, by the way, I still love the taste of meat. I love the taste of fish. I’m like a vegan that loves meat.

AK: Do you ever cheat?

RB: No. Actually, so I’ll take that back. I don’t know if I cheat and I’ll describe why I don’t know if I cheat.

AK: Well, sometimes you don’t know really what you’re being given.

RB: Well, yeah, that’s true, but so I’ve had cell-based meat. I don’t know if you’re familiar with cell-based meat?

AK: A little bit, yeah.

RB: So, cell-based meat is meat grown in a bioreactor, so it’s slaughter-free meat. It’s actually meat, it’s not plants.

AK: Nobody died.

RB: Nobody died to make meat. It really just transforms everything because then what is that, right? And we’ve had all sorts of philosophical debates about is it vegan, is it not vegan? And is it vegetarian, is it not vegetarian? It’s meat, but it’s slaughter-free meat so it just defies convention.

AK: And I think I’ve seen you on a video eating the dog food.

RB: I have, yeah.

AK: So, does it taste like meat? ‘Cause one of the things about Beyond Meat for humans that’s been so successful is that it kind of tastes like meat. Like, I enjoy it. It tastes like meat but it’s not meat.

RB: Yeah.

AK: I know you can’t ask a dog but you can get the feedback that they’re eating it that they probably like it.

RB: I’ve eaten lots of different types of kibble, some may have been meat-based, just to get a feel for everything. It tastes very much like conventional kibble. That was one of the reasons we actually made it high protein. So, the kibble itself is actually high protein. It’s comparable to ancestral diets, the high end, high quality meat-based products. But it’s 100% plant based.

AK: So, you go on Shark Tank and just for our listeners, I loved your Five Things I Learned from Going on Shark Tank. It’s very humble. I think there’s some interesting lessons there. One of the things you talk about is having to really, even though you’re a good presenter, you’re a very personable guy, but you had to rehearse your script. And that it’s not 10 minutes, because that’s edited down but it’s like 40 minutes and they give you shit. Like, they clown you, cause they want to see what you’re made of. What was it like going on, by the way, not having any sales yet, right?

RB: Yeah, we had no sales. So, we got on, actually the whole process was just, a really long process. I had to keep auditioning for us, to make sure it was interesting and I realized that I wasn’t an actor. Learning my lines, that pitch right at front is actually pretty hard.

AK: And you have to nail it.

RB: You have to nail it. And you have to nail it when you walk into a room, which it looks like you’re just in a room where all the sharks are at, but actually it’s a studio. So you have all the cameramen and women, and lighting, everything in the background moving, as well as the sharks who were messing with you.

You start pitching and they start messing with you and so I got myself into a mental state. I do a lot of this, kind of, actually athletes do it, I know you’re an IRONMAN, and so I basically visualized walking in, pitching, and closing the sharks. My dream was to close Mark Cuban, and he seemed very disinterested pretty much throughout. He asked a bunch of really hard questions.

AK: That’s part of his shtick, too, right?

RB: Yeah. The sharks were really hard on me. And actually, Mr. Wonderful was the funniest. He started to talking about dogs eating our food would they transform and start wearing Birkenstocks and tie-dyes? I just had to explain this common misconception that dogs are carnivores, they’re not. They’re omnivores, like us, and so they can survive and thrive on a plant-based diet just like us.

And so that was really the main message that I wanted to convey to America. It’s really important to remember when you’re on there, you’re not just talking to the sharks, you’re talking to, when we aired, I was talking to 3.7 million people were watching live on the air that night.

AK: Yeah. That’s amazing. I think, and that was your first time doing that, right?

RB: Yeah, yeah.

AK: And you’re a very experienced serial entrepreneur and you’ve been in very high-pressure sales presentations where you’re raising money and funding and stuff like that. And this was probably one of the hardest things you’ve ever done.

RB: Yeah, most definitely. Most definitely. The amount of pressure on that, because it really mattered, to not just me, my whole team. So a lot was riding on that pitch. Step one was make sure not to mess up too badly. Step two was if we could close one of the sharks that would be transformative to our business, and thankfully, we did.

AK: And this was a couple of years ago so it was before Beyond Meat and also before these other start ups like, we use Farmer’s Dog, or my friend, a former client, is now head of Ollie, where there is also this movement more towards I want to know what my dog is eating and if I can’t eat it, they shouldn’t eat it. So you have that combined with the, it can taste like meat, have the same benefits as meat without doing harm to the animal or to the environment. So it’s almost like a perfect storm for you right now.

RB: It really is. I don’t think you could have predicted it. Looking back two years ago, what would have been happening in the pet food space. We’re seeing it, people are calling it the humanization of pet food. People are looking at what they eat, they’re looking at what their pets eat and they’re like, oh, I see that there is a difference. This is a family member, we need to feed them better. And so, part of my personal mission was how can we help people feed them better, yet make it affordable? So when you look at a lot of these fresh dog food companies, this human food.

AK: And this is dried food, right?

RB: Wild Earth is, our clean protein formula, is kibble. So it stores, you can have it stored for a month. It’s really easy. It keeps the convenience of kibble, but it’s really focused on the clean protein, whereas the other fresh food formulations I mean it’s, I don’t know if you’ve ever seen them when it gets delivered, it’s huge packages lots of plastic, lots of Styrofoam.

AK: And dry ice.

RB: Dry ice, yeah. It doesn’t really hit on the sustainability aspect. It hits on the healthier aspect, for sure. And it’s also really expensive and so....

AK: It’s crazy expensive. They are getting better on the packaging I will say. So just yesterday, they have a kind of foam, probably you’re familiar with this, where you can put a hose on it and it kind of disintegrates into the ground, which is pretty cool.

RB: Oh wow. Oh that is amazing!

AK: I’m not trying to give a shout out to other companies, but it has actually worked really well. And I will say, once we moved, so I have two huge golden doodles, it’s kind of classic, Wally and Winnie. Wally often comes to the office, Winnie not so much, she’s got anxiety. They’re both super picky eaters and once we moved to putting the fresh food on top of the kibble, their entire being changed.

And not to get too gross about it, but as a dog, you can see it in their poop, and I’m sorry to say that, but you can see it. And you’re like, “Oh good boy, that’s a good one,” you know? And they’re not sick anymore. It’s amazing. And I think back to when I was a kid, we had two dogs. We had a lab and a bull mastiff, and my mom, every Sunday night, used to cook a stew for the dogs that would then, get them through, and it was just basic vegetables and chicken or meat, that’s it. Beef. And that’s what we did. And somehow we moved to this processed food, just as we have as humans, and we’ve gotten away from those roots.

RB: Yeah, I mean, when you look at the history of dogs, it’s absolutely fascinating. I look at it as a scientist. So, I look back to the history of our evolution. So we as a species, homo sapiens are about 200,000 years old.

Dogs, are, based on historical records, we think they co-evolved with us starting with about 100,000 years ago. So previously, it was about 10,000 years ago, now it looks like about 100,000 years ago. So, it makes sense that they’ve co-evolved with us and their genetics are different to wolves. So, when you look at their genetics, they actually have increases in the ability to do starch metabolism to be basically digest starchy foods like vegetables and fruits like we do. And it’s a co-evolution that really happened. That’s the theory.

AK: I promise, this is my last poop reference, but one of the reasons why I’m told that we have to pick up our dog poop, and then it’s stupid because you pick it up so it doesn’t go into our rivers and our streams or whatever and it ends up somewhere in a plastic bag in a landfill but one of the reasons I’m told we have to pick it up is because if they had a plant based diet, it would just be like manure and it would be fine for the ground. So is that another benefit or is that weird science that I’m just making up?

RB: I think that’s weird science, yeah.

AK: So, it’s not like cows and cow patties and manure, it’s different. The digestive systems are different.

RB: Yeah, I mean, to be honest, you could use both as manure if you wanted to. I wouldn’t recommend it.

AK: That could be a side business, though, you could have a manure business on the side.

RB: Exactly. But yeah, dog manure, I don’t know if that has a ring to it, but dogs are omnivorous though, usually their diets pretty much all dogs unless they’re on raw meat diets, will have a mixture of vegetables fruits and…

AK: I think that raw meat diet’s crazy. I had a friend that did it and the first two years of the dog’s life it was fine. And then after that, it was a disaster and she got very sick. All it takes is that one parasite, right?

RB: Yeah, and one of the big concerns is, I don’t know if you’ve seen recently, there’s a company selling raw pigs’ ears. So a bunch of, not just dogs but their pet parents, got salmonella from literally just holding the raw meat product. And so, what’s interesting is that we’ve actually had a lot of customers starting to switch across.

We just launched one other clean protein dog food and we’ve had, even though its 100% plant-based product, it’s high protein so we’re seeing people who want clean protein, like raw food or high quality ancestral diets, switching across. It’s really kind of surprising, but it kind of makes sense. Like, I’ve talked to several actually raw food store owners and they said, their customers want something better for their pets.

AK: Right. And like you said, they’re family members.

RB: They’re family members.

AK: And how’s business? Sounds like it’s going really well.

RB: Yeah, so we launched about a month ago. We’ve had really great traction. We previously had treats.

AK: That’s a good way to test it.

RB: Yeah, it’s a good way to test it. Our business has been great, and obviously from a relatively low based because we just launched, but about 50% per month which is really nice. Still very early.

AK: And you’re manufacturing here in the states?

RB: We are, yes.

AK: Are you out on the West Coast?

RB: Yeah, so we do our prototyping on the West Coast and actually we do our manufacturing in the Midwest.

AK: Awesome. What about a Kosher product? So, I ask because, this is funny, I’m going to admit this, but I’ve been listening to a couple Jewish podcasts recently. Judaism Unbound, Unorthodox, for those, my tribe members out there are looking for some, it’s this time of year, we’re about to go into a new year. So, one of the questions was if you’re Jewish and you’re Kosher should your dog be, is your dog Jewish, is your dog Kosher? And there are some people who only want to be able to feed their dogs Kosher food, and I was thinking isn’t veganism and vegetarianism that could easily translate to being Kosher or Halal, right?

RB: Easily. It’s very linked. I actually have a good friend of mine who’s a rabbi. His work was really spreading peace through food. He’s 100% plant-based and so he made a plant-based sushi. And so, he would employ former convicted felons in San Francisco and really help them transform their lives. But bringing Kosher to the mainstream plant-based movement was something he was very passionate about. And so, this is actually a question I’ve had a couple times now, around Kosher and Halal dog food with Wild Earth. That’s something I think definitely I want to work towards. I don’t see why we couldn’t do that. As it’s plant-based, should be Kosher should be Halal. Obviously we don’t have the certification yet, but we’re going to work towards that.

AK: But you know people.

RB: And I know people. I might be able to get a few certifications here and there.

AK: Right now you’re selling online.

RB: We are. So, we’re selling online. So our dog food is available now online. Our treats are available in about 100 different stores across the US, including, actually, here in New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, all the major cities and some really great smaller towns, as well. That was actually thanks to Shark Tank, as well. And we’re available online for our dog food, our small and large bags are available online at WildEarth.com.

AK: Great. And how did you actually, I know on the outset to the uninformed, let’s just say, it probably looks easy to create this. But there’s a lot of science and a lot of trial and error and probably a lot of frustration that goes into it. What was that like, just creating the actual product itself? Because, if you launched a month or two ago, you’ve been in business since 2017, the reason why is because you needed to get this right.

RB: 100%. So it was way harder than I first thought. You know, I’ve been a biotech entrepreneur, a food entrepreneur for a long time now. And I’d assumed that it would be a fairly straightforward process to develop a dog food. But when you’re developing a product where it literally is a complete diet, so the dog can literally eat our kibble, survive and thrive, that has to be a condition of the product.

AK: There’s no other supplement necessary.

RB: No other supplement necessary.

AK: Or vitamins.

RB: We have all the vitamins, all the minerals, all the amino acids that are absolutely necessary. And we actually supplement. So we go beyond what’s minimum and we supplement stuff like taurine, which are really important for dogs, and actually, interestingly enough for us, B vitamins, various other things. So we make sure that we have the minimums and then we go above and beyond that because we really care first and foremost, about the pet’s health. Longer, healthier lives, not just clean protein but better products, too.

AK: Sure, sure. And, how did you test it? Was it on your own dog, mostly, I know you’re eating it as well, and if you could also touch on the differences between, obviously the anatomy and our needs are different. What is it about dogs that they need that we don’t necessarily need? That you needed to really focus on, or is it the same?

RB: It’s pretty much the same. It’s pretty much the same. There are slight differences, obviously, if any veterinarians listening know that there are slight differences between canine biology and homosapien biology. But they are omnivores, like us.

So one of the really important things with developing this type of product is that we need to make sure that our testing was done in a cruelty free manner. That’s actually one of the hardest things for us, so it was the formulation which was some actually pretty deep science, our head of development, my fellow cofounder, Abrilla Strata, she led it with her team. She’s a PHD scientist, as well. She worked with our chief veterinarian, Dr. Ernie Ward to develop it.

So the formula was one part of the hard science. We had to make sure it was really high, high end formula, 21st century formula, based off what we know about nutrition today, and it’s a controversial space, in general, in the human and…

AK: And it always will be.

RB: Always will be, yeah.

AK: And pretty unregulated, unfortunately.

RB: Pretty unregulated. Although, interestingly enough, within pet food, it’s actually pretty regulated because dogs need to be able to survive and thrive off the kibble that they eat. It’s complete food. And so that is actually regulated. And so, it’s under AFCO, which is the regulatory body that’s FDA and AFCO, but the harder thing was there were several hard things. I guess one of my favorite books, Ben Horowitz’s book, A Hard Thing about Hard Things.

AK: Hmmhmm, very meta.

RB: Yeah, very meta. The hard thing was actually developing cruelty-free testing and so a lot of people don’t know this but for dog lovers in the pet food industry when you see a new formula, a new flavor, many times those new formulas, new flavors new dog foods are tested on lab beagles.

AK: Oh, I had no idea.

RB: Yeah, most of us didn’t.

AK: Are those lab beagles being tested for other things, or just…

RB: They may well be, yeah.

AK: Oh, I see.

RB: Animals that are…

AK: Why beagles? That’s so…awww…

RB: Because they’re so sweet.

AK: Oh, they are.

RB: Unfortunately, to me I was like, wait a minute, dog lovers do not know this. That there are large companies testing dog food on dogs in labs, beagles in labs. And so, we really wanted to make a change in the industry. So for us, we’re a company but were really a mission wrapped in a company. We want to make the pet food industry 100% cruelty free. That goes for where our products come from, and sustainable too, but where our products come from, all the way through to testing. And so, we have not done anything other than volunteer testing. So we actually reached out…

AK: My guess is the pet owner that volunteers the dog.

RB: Yeah, the pet owner that volunteers the dog. And my typical rule is I will always test the food first. So myself and my team will always eat the food before we give it any of the dogs. And I’ve eaten lots of it. So, that’s the starting point. If it’s good enough, it’s got to be good enough for me, before we even serve it.

AK: So what, did you put like an ad out on Craigslist? Like how did you get.

RB: Yeah, turned out it was actually pretty hard! So we had to actually really innovate on how this is done and we actually worked with professors at the University of Oklahoma. Really helped us a lot with developing a structure, running a whole bunch of different volunteer testing around everything from the flavor of the food, because obviously, different kibble has different flavorings. All the way through to longer term studies to look at like, how did they do, like, week one, week two, week three.

AK: Right, so you’re actually giving them checkups. Like you’re…

RB: Checkups. Right. We’re checking on them to see how they’re doing.

AK: Does that include, I said no more poop, but like, stool samples.

RB: Yeah, you have to. I mean, that’s actually.

AK: That’s my last poop reference. It’s appropriate.

RB: Poop and pets go together.

AK: It does.

RB: So, we’re always looking at poop, and actually, even with our treats, we looked at poop. We actually were able to increase- I have to be very careful when I say this ‘cause I have to be very specific around the science.

AK: You’re not going to talk about corn and poop, right?

RB: No. We’re not going to talk…

AK: I thought you were going to go there.

RB: We were able to increase the microbial diversity of the gut which is generally seen as a good thing with our treats, and our food. But, as many things in the gut microbiome, this is still evolving science. We think that’s a good thing.

AK: We don’t even know in humans. The microbiome thing is still very new, right?

RB: We don’t, yeah, and it gets really weird when you start to dive deep into the science of the microbiome, because bacteria can swap around and exchange DNA, so you don’t even know what species…

AK: Right, and they might have been drinking from a puddle two minutes before eating which completely changes everything.

RB: 100%. So it’s tricky but we’re trying, we’re at an early starting point, obviously, but we want to add more and more science to our products. We really think we transformed the nutritional health of all of our pets with better and better science.

AK: It’s amazing. I did not realize that there are like these lab beagles that are being used by all these pet food companies.

RB: But, we want to change that. And there are definitely some companies that don’t do that as well, but we really want it to make it as a, and this will be something as we grow, we’ll be campaigning around this more and more, we want the entire industry to move away from testing in dogs in labs. We don’t think that’s acceptable. Same thing for cats, as we look to release cat products, we’ll be doing the same thing in that space. That’s a little more complicated, by the way, it’s probably biotech. And so, we really wanted to have a revolution, a cruelty-free revolution in pet food, just as we’ve seen in cosmetics and in food.

AK: So let’s talk about cats for a second. I don’t hate cats.

RB: Yeah.

AK: But I’m very allergic. Which definitely creates some tension between me and cats.

RB: Yes.

AK: And, I love dogs, okay. But I recognize and I appreciate people who love cats. Is it as simple as it is with dogs? Can you just be like if it works for dogs, it works for cats? Or is it that the anatomy and the biology is completely different.

RB: It’s more complicated.

AK: Well, cats are complicated.

RB: Cats are complicated.

AK: And quite independent, too.

RB: Yes, very independently minded. So, I love dogs, probably more than cats. I’m sorry to admit it, I have many of my team members at Wild Earth who love cats more than dogs, but we all love animals so that’s our common.

AK: So like being coated in hair constantly?

RB: Yeah, they’re cat moms and dads and they love cats. And honestly there’s some cats that I absolutely love. I think cats are even more full of personality than dogs. They’re very specific. Some cats will love you, some cats will hate you, some will bite you, some will scratch you, some will cuddle you. But their biology is very different. So they are, what’s called obligate carnivores. So they are carnivores, they’re little lions.

AK: By the way, and sorry to interrupt. You don’t see bomb sniffing cats, right? Or rescue cats.

RB: No you do not.

AK: Just saying, so there’s that. But keep going, sorry.

RB: Cats are less domesticated than dogs. So they’re still much more connected to its original, wild nature. So they are much less evolved to be domesticated, to be with….

AK: ‘Cause they haven’t co-evolved in the same way dogs have.

RB: No they have not. They’ve been around for a long time but we’ve kind of let them do their own thing. They hunt the mice and they kind of keep our…

AK: That’s ‘cause they want to do their own thing.

RB: That’s ‘cause they want to do their own thing, exactly.

AK: Sorry to ruin your story.

RB: Yeah, no. There are some specific adaptions of a carnivore body that really have to be dealt with for biology. And so as we’re a biotech company, we really think that we can transform this space so that we can have better foods that are also cruelty free. We’ve looked at cell-based meats, we’ve actually made some mouse meats for cats. We haven’t moved forward, we got a lot of feedback from pet parents that they just don’t want to feed their cats mouse meat.

AK: But it’s cell-based mouse meat?

RB: Cell-based mouse meat.

AK: That’s fascinating.

RB: Yeah, so slaughter-free. There were no mice killed for that meat.

AK: Yeah, so it’s like the opposite of Tom and Jerry.

RB: Opposite of Tom and Jerry, yeah. Infinite mouse, but Jerry can still keep living. Yeah. So what we’re looking at, is we’re looking at that as a product line for cats so cat parents really want something better something that’s cruelty free something that’s more sustainable. And we’re really looking at how we can develop better science. There’s also some pretty interesting alternative proteins that we’re investigating that we may be able to use for cat products. But it will be tailored to their biology, and cats have several adaptions that you really have to be careful with and it would hurt them. They cannot be on a plant-based diet.

AK: I did not realize that.

RB: Yeah, fully plant-based. There’s actually synthetic things that you can do. You can supplement them with taurine…

AK: And like you said, it doesn’t mean that an animal has to die for them to live it just means that you might have to use a cell based…

RB: Yeah, we might have to use biotech.

AK: Which will require more investment.

RB: Yep.

AK: And you want to nail the dog thing first.

RB: For sure.

AK: Maybe, not maybe, but when that really, really takes off you’ll have the funds to reinvest in cats.

RB: Exactly.

AK: I’m just trying to avoid getting any sort of cat hate mail after this airs, you know?

RB: We love dogs and cats. They’re different personality types so I have had cats growing up. I love cats, I actually…

AK: My dogs like to eat cats. It’s a problem, but that’s for another conversation.

RB: The high prey dog, that’s a problem.

AK: We’ve got a bunch of feral cats in the neighborhood, which is wrong cause we’re trying to capture and neuter them, right? Exactly. Never ends. It’s very difficult to do.

RB: Yeah, for sure.

AK: I don’t know why rabbits have that reputation. It’s really cats that are like the uber horny ones that are kind of multiplying all across the neighborhood. And it drives my dogs nuts. That’s really interesting about the whole cat thing. And, what else beyond dogs and cats? There’s obviously a larger vision. And you’re very focused right now, but what’s going to happen after that?

RB: So, first things first. We really have to. If all we do is create the category leader in sustainable high protein pet food, Wild Earth will be super happy with that. Obviously, if we’re talking about a 10-20 year vision, this is, for me, it’s a personal quest, to really make the world sustainable and better for the people and the animals. I think that we can make better products, plant based products, biotech based products, that just really transform our world for the better. So, part of naming Wild Earth, Wild Earth is that we really wanted to re-wild the world by using less land. That’s very topical at the moment, obviously, with the Amazon burning. Most of that, I think about 80% of that land that’s being burnt down, I think will be used for cattle farming.

AK: It’s amazing to me there hasn’t been more backlash. So, Notre Dame, the roof burned back in April. And a couple countries and a couple of large corporations raised like a billion dollars to repair that. So, we get a couple of countries together, the G whatever, and they’re raising $23 million dollars for the Amazon? I don’t get it! And it’s nothing against the cathedral. It’s beautiful, but what’s going to sustain us over time? And you do have to make a decision about what’s more important, and I still think that we have a long way to go.

Like, there’s definitely this kind of one of stay woke consciousness that’s increasing. You saw it at the business roundtable recently. Even just yesterday, I always hate to date these things but it’s important. Just yesterday we had 145 companies sign a letter to Congress asking them to do more with gun control. So, there’s definitely a greater level of engagement and activism even from corporations that was once taboo. So I do feel like were onto something but we still have a lot of work to do.

And I love the fact that you built a company specifically around purpose. Like, your vision is purposeful, and it’s kind of multidimensional. It’s not just for the dog. But, you’re also educating humans, along the way. ‘Cause I do think there’s going to be this knock-on effect. Like if I’m feeding my dog this and look at them, maybe I need to rethink my own diet. I’ve tried. I start with meatless Mondays. I would try cell-based meat, that’s kind of interesting. I’m open to it.

My triathlon coach went vegan. First of all, he’s 60-something and he looks like he’s 40-something and he literally was able to see the reversal of his heart disease, which is genetic, it has nothing to do with his lifestyle. The guy is very fit. He had his first heart attack when he was 49, and it was a widow maker and he survived. And you look at the way he’s changed his diet to become vegan, and he’s literally reversed his heart damage. And you can see that in all of the different imageries and diagnostic tools that they’ve used to map his heart.

RB: Actually, Bill Clinton did something similar.

AK: Oh yeah. That’s right.

RB: So, Bill Clinton went on a plant-based diet, so he’s famous for loving really greasy delicious things.

AK: Yeah, southern food that was his thing.

RB: Southern food, that was his thing. And there’s videos of him talking about this. He talked to his doctor and he was like, “I’ll do anything, I want to see my grandkids grow up.” And he said, “Why don’t you try a plant-based diet?” Plant-based diets, some of them have been associated with what’s called coronary plaque. So, obviously, this is the plaque that clogs up our arteries. And he actually saw that. So he went on a plant-based diet and he apparently cheats a little bit, has a little fish here and there.

AK: Yeah, and he looks terrific.

RB: He looks great, he looks great, but for the most part, that’s the whole point. I think perfection is the enemy of the good. I think if you want to start, start.

AK: And it’s a process, you don’t have to go right away.

RB: I was a pescatarian for years because I still love the taste of meat.

AK: How did you give up egg? That’s a hard one for me.

RB: Eggs is one of the hard ones.

AK: I eat like a dozen eggs or more a week.

RB: I loved omelets, that was my thing. Like a nice omelet in the morning.

AK: And it is a whole food, to be fair.

RB: It is a whole food.

AK: Nobody dies, or nobody died because it’s an unfertilized egg, right?

RB: Yes, but when you start looking behind how you make those eggs, suddenly you start realizing, “Whoa, there’s a whole bunch of stuff that I’m not cool with.” At least for me.

AK: What if you had your own chicken coop?

RB: Yeah, that’s a little different. I think when people have their own little chickens at home when they eat their eggs.

AK: You’re not the kind of guy that’s like a judgey….

RB: No.

AK: Vegan guy.

RB: No. Never never never.

AK: You know, you’re far more open-minded and very realistic about how the world works, which is nice.

RB: Yeah, yeah, and I think that’s part of the problem, right? The judgey vegans are kind of like, I know many, I love them a lot.

AK: We call them jegans. The judgey vegans.

RB: But the thing is, its like, I have many friends and family members who’ve approached me and been like, “Hey, I know you’re not judgmental, I like to try this meatless Monday, how do I start?”

AK: You can start at Chipotle at the sofritos.

RB: You totally can.

AK: And they’re great.

RB: I love those, by the way. I go to, if I’m in a random city, I look for the Chipotle and I have the sofritas, nice high protein meal. And so, it’s all about being kind to yourself and to others. And I think that that’s something that for those of us that are trying to create sustainability changes, make things better for the animals on this planet, but not just the factory farmed animals. But as a biologist, I look at ecosystems. I look at the massive amount of destruction in the rainforests and the forests and the savannahs that we’re doing and it is driven by our insatiable for meat.

AK: But was it, so when you transitioned to becoming a vegetarian, was it one moment, an aha moment? Or was it like a process like did you have a friend or a family member or a doctor or did you read something, like, what inspired you to do it originally?

RB: So, it was kind of shocking. So, when I first stopped eating certain types of meat. I didn’t stop eating hamburgers for a little while because I hadn’t made the connection and I loved going to Burger King or McDonalds, or Wendy’s or whatever else. My dad, so I’m the son of two immigrants. My dad grew up on a farm in Cuba, and he used to like to get fresh pork. And so he took me to get some fresh pork in Miami one time and I saw a pig slaughtered in front of me.

AK: Oh, yeah. There’s so much blood. I’ve seen it.

RB: You’ve seen it, right?

AK: Yes, when they drain it.

RB: It’s horrific?

AK: Yeah.

RB: He knows. It was so horrific. I was 10 years old at the time.

AK: And I do love bacon. If you look at my Insta, there’s actually 2 strips of bacon in my bio.

RB: By the way, I love bacon too, still, by the way. I still ate a little bit of bacon. It was just so tasty, but I was like, “What just happened?” I was like traumatized. And it took me a little while to figure out, actually, my choices matter. So where I put my dollars, actually has an impact. And so, it took me a little while to develop my philosophy around that. But I think that, many of us, we’re waking up to actually where you spend your money.

If you buy Wild Earth versus a meat-based product that means you had an impact, you voted for something. Same thing with what you put on your plate. So, everything we do everywhere we spend our money is a vote. Every dollar is a vote. And that took me a while to develop that philosophy and I started to realize, actually, I don’t agree with doing this or if there’s exploitation or there’s something that’s ruining the Amazon. If I know about it, I can actually change where I put my dollars.

AK: Right, right. I mean the good news is that the world is becoming more transparent. So you’re able to see more connections and see more connectivity. And there’s a great awareness around the supply chain with moves towards ESG, which is stupid letters but that’s what publically traded companies go by now. They’re being held accountable by their shareholders, not just their customers, not just consumers.

But it is hard to be perfect in that way so if you look at, and I wrote about this in my Forbes column, if you look at a very polarizing investor who is a Trump supporter behind Equinox and SoulCycle, does it mean you should give up your membership in Equinox and SoulCycle? That’s kind of a hard thing to do, right? He doesn’t directly manage the company and by the way, I guarantee you if you really put your entire life under a microscope, including how you travel from San Francisco to New York to be here today.

RB: 100%.

AK: There’s a lot of things that are associated with other organization and people that are polarizing. Things that you might not agree with, but we don’t live in a cave, either. But, I agree with you that there’s still some other things that we do have control over, and a lot of it has to do with purchasing power. And you can vote with your wallet and you can decide what is tolerable and what’s intolerable. And it’s great that you are bringing a product to market. There’s an option, because, as far as I know, I know there are a few products out there, including you can try and home make something, right?

RB: You can, you can.

AK: But, I think this is amazing, and I’m definitely going to try it with my dogs. I’ve got one dog who’s like, Wally is like a huge meat lover, so.

RB: Try it with Wally.

AK: I’m going to try it with him. Winnie, I could be sitting eating a peach, and Winnie, you know the dog does the whole head on your lap thing.

RB: Just looking at you.

AK: Yeah. And I’ll literally, I’m that guy who’ll share the peach, but like mouth to mouth with her. Like, no shame. We love each other. We’re good. I don’t think we’ve every transmitted any bacteria to each other that I’m aware of. So, Winnie’s going to be all for it. But we’re definitely going to try it.

RB: So there’s some interesting science around exactly what you just described about sharing bacteria. Turns out, it may be beneficial. So you know how dogs….

AK: I should make out with Winnie?

RB: Well, Winnie’s trying to like, lick your face.

AK: Does that mean I’m cheating on my wife? Does that count?

RB: Uh…..well, yeah, it’s kisses.

AK: It’s kisses.

RB: It’s like kissing Grandma.

AK: Exactly.

RB: So, but their microbiome actually is helpful. There’s some theories around it because we’ve coevolved. There’s actually like, when they try and lick you, they’re trying to pass on some beneficial microbes, as well.

AK: That’s good because I was a c-section baby so I didn’t get any of the good microbiome stuff.

RB: Maybe Winnie’s helping you out.

AK: Yeah, so maybe tonight Winnie and I will share some more peaches.

RB: Yeah, that’s right. Winnie and peaches.

AK: Listen, man, it was great having you on.

RB: Thanks, Aaron.

AK: And, just remind everybody how do we get your food?

RB: Yeah, so go to Wildearth.com. So W-I-L-D Earth dot com. One word and you can just order right online we have some discounts at the moment for your first bag and so we’d love to hear from you. People can always email me at Ryan@wildearth.com. I love hearing from our customers.

AK: And you can’t hire any more Ryan’s now.

RB: Yeah, we can’t hire any more Ryans.

AK: They’d be Ryan2. Or they’d change their name.

RB: Ryan2. I like that. Ryan2. Anyone that comes after me is Ryan2.

AK: Thanks again, and good luck with everything.

RB: Thank you.