SEASON 1 EPISODE 11 with

Episode Transcript +

Season 1, Episode 11

How one couple’s apparel is cleaning the oceans, treating arthritis, helping veterans, and curing cancer. A Conversation with Gells’ Richard Perkin

Guest: Richard Perkin, Co-Founder of apparel company Gells

Aaron Kwittken: Broadcasting from the 10 Hudson Square Building, home of WNYC Radio here in Soho, New York, welcome to Brand on Purpose, the podcast dedicated to uncovering the untold stories behind the most impactful purpose-driven companies.

My guest today is Richard Perkin. He is founder of Gells, which is a family friendly apparel company that he founded alongside his wife, Ashley, who also serves as CMO. This company was built specifically for purpose. A large portion of their proceeds go to several causes and he’ll tell you a little bit about that journey. Richard’s day job is actually serving as a VP at an investment company called Wolverine Investments. We may or may not get to that but we’re really here to talk about his passion for Gells. Before starting Gells, I think you had a career in marketing, right, and you’ve got some background in marketing.

Richard Perkin: Yes, by and large, marketing and development.

AK: Perfect, ok, two things that are a good basis for the building of almost any company. Richard is a UVM guy and that’s near and dear to my heart, only ‘cause my wife’s from Vermont. Beautiful state, and many of her friends also went to UVM and I think a lot of very smart and successful people went to UVM. We may or may not get to that, as well, but a big shout out to UVM. Of course, my niece went there, future veterinarian. So Richard, welcome to Brand on Purpose and thank you again for coming in studio, it’s great to see you and great to meet you.

RP: Yeah, well, thank you for having me.

AK: So, you were mentioned in this pretty incredible story by Paul Sullivan in the New York Times, along with some other purpose driven brands and companies, mostly start ups. Yours was not the one that was co-founded with Kristen Bell, but still, I’m having you in anyway, because I’d like to have Kristen Bell in at one point.

RP: Yeah, well, I hope I don’t disappoint, but I’m very happy to be mentioned alongside.

AK: Right. Right. Right. So, you’re no Kristen Bell but we’ll take you. Tell me a little bit about the founding of the company. I know it’s not your day job, but it sounds like it’s probably the most important job and the one that keeps you going. And, I should mention, for those listening, so Richard is in here fresh off of what, two weeks ago your wife gave birth to twins?

RP: Yeah, to twin boys.

AK: Twin boys. And you have two other children that are 5 and under so he’s got his hands full. I don’t know how you guys do it.

RP: Well that’s part of the fun, as they say, is trying to strike that balance, but again, we signed up for it and we’re happy to see where it goes.

AK: So because I am not going to get your founder’s story right, why don’t you tell me your founder’s story.

RP: Sure, so for Ashley and I, my wife, it really was born, Gells, out of desire, We both had small business backgrounds out of college, each ten plus years, each in the small business world and we both loved that side of it, the creativity that comes with working at a small business. And Ashley working in fashion and beauty thought that we could have a lot of fun with belts.

AK: Did you guys meet in college?

RP: Technically, yes, we met abroad in Italy. In Florence, so she went to Colgate.

AK: What a beautiful and romantic place to meet someone.

RP: Right. It’s pretty funny, people ask, is she Italian. No, she’s from Westchester. But we had to go to Italy even though we grew up 30 minutes away from one another. And we both knew we wanted to incorporate our personal commitment to philanthropy. And so, again with Ashley’s background in fashion and beauty, and mine in the business side, she suggested that we could have a lot of fun with belts as a primary product. My parents and grandparents on both sides at least to me, were always dressed meticulously. So having a fashion be a part of the bigger picture certainly worked on my end. Our first 5 belt colors each aligned with one of our 5 partnered charities and we donate 5% and so forth.

AK: But, why belts?

RP: So…

AK: I mean, there’s a lot of things you can build. A lot of things you can manufacture, right?

RP: Right, so one of Ashley’s initial internships was working for a belt manufacturer so she had some inside knowledge in the space.

AK: Interesting.

RP: And I think, too, again, you can have a lot of fun with being creative with different line of belts and then we started really having fun with it all in saying a belt is what “gells” your outfit together.

AK: Ahhhh, got it.

RP: Ha ha, aren’t we funny? And candidly? Look, we’ve taken no outside money so as far as expenses go, it was something that was easy for us to put together, relatively.

AK: So, you’ve got 4 529 plans to fund? Or you can fund Gells and save the world. Or both, maybe.

RP: Well, yeah, hopefully we continue to grow. We can address both those issues. So that is the long and the short of it, and yes, it’s for both the whole family, both an adult line and children’s line. Our guys, our 3 and our 5 year olds are models so they’re the ones who give us the OK.

AK: They’re good looking kids.

RP: We think so.

AK: And is it gells.com?

RP: gells.org.

AK: Got it.

RP: Again, that’s the long and the short of it.

AK: Right, right. So, you decide to have your first child of, now 4, and you’re like you know what, that’s not enough. We’re gonna start a company.

RP: Yeah, so, we had our first child and started within about 2 months of one other. And so, were we thinking clearly? Yes. Did it go exactly according to plan? No. But I think any entrepreneur would say the same thing. Yes, we have a business plan that we followed and we’ve deviated from it and we’ve had to come back to it and life has gotten in the way but I think part of what were trying to do, and I think part of our brand, quite frankly, is we are a family brand. Right? And we are trying to establish that and show that it can be done. At the risk of sounding cliché, if you have a desire, if you have a want, if you have a passion, you will figure out a way to do it. I fundamentally believe that.

AK: And what you don’t want is regret. That you didn’t try.

RP: And that’s right. I think, you’ve heard it before. I’ve heard it before. It’s good to take strategic chances and it’s something we wanted to do and you’re right I mean if we had not followed through with it you always wonder what if, right?

AK: There’s never really a good time to do anything, right? To get married, to have kids, to start a company, so, I get that. I totally do. And I also think that once you make that decision you seem like an all in kinda guy, right?

RP: You raise a good point I mean I think the hardest part figuratively speaking is pulling out of the driveway. It’s great to have these good ideas, I mean, with anything. Booking a big trip, you can plan it all you want but once you finally buy the plane tickets, and I think it’s really the same thing with a company.

AK: And did you, like, do it stealthily or did you tell everybody? And the reason I ask is because I have, for me, when I’m about to embark on something big it could be kind of an athletic endurance event, or it could even be when I started my own company, right? I need to tell as many people as possible only because what I’m doing is not proprietary but to also hold myself accountable. So people are like, so, how’s it going, you said you were going to do X. Did you keep it kind of stealth and between you guys or did you start telling people to help get that validation or did you not really need that accountability, that extra layer of accountability?

RP: We told folks who were important to us. I don’t think we made it public knowledge amongst our entire network group, etc., but, you’re right, we wanted to follow through on it. I take a lot of pride in that personally and professionally. If I say I’m going to be somewhere, ill be there. If I say I’m going to do something ill do it and I don’t want to be held accountable, in general. Again, inside the office and out. So yes, we told an inner circle and they would ask and then the website went live on Thanksgiving Day 2014 and we were in it.

AK: So from the moment that you had the idea, or rather, from the moment that you had decided that you’re going to do this to the moment that you actually launched the website, how long was that?

RP: Probably a year in the making. And it was product design, I mean, all the steps I wont go through each one. You know there’s a lot of decisions that you have to make, a lot of decisions that you didn’t know you would have to make.

AK: So, what was your first, oh shit moment, like not to give you doubt but just where you’re like, wow, I didn’t expect that.

RP: Pre or post launch?

AK: Prelaunch.

RP: Prelaunch.

AK: I’ll give you mine, just as an example. When I started my company 14 years ago, I didn’t realize you can get office space, and at the time there’s no WeWork. 2005-2006, there’s no WeWork. I had to put up 6 month’s rent and I had to personally guarantee, which I’m sure you did as well, everything. There’s no cloud, right? The cloud is for rain, right? There were servers, there was equipment, there was all these capital expenditures that I had to personally, no one told me that I had to personally sign for these things. If I don’t pay the bills, they come after me, right?

RP: That’s right.

AK: And I took a second mortgage on my house and I’m like trying to clear checks at the bank so I could make payroll. I had like, multiple oh shit moments which I knew probably were there somewhere in the ether, but then when you face it, there’s no game plan. You have to use instinct and grit and a little bit of charm to kind of manage each issue, right?

RP: Right. Which is part of the entrepreneur’s way, right, I mean that I think, sometimes I think the word entrepreneur gets thrown around a bit. I mean I think entrepreneurs are inherently creative and that certainly, and that can be in an established business I think that gets overlooked sometimes. You can be in an established business and still be an entrepreneur. You might be creating a new way to track inventory. You might be creating a new way, a more efficient way, to manage customers, etc. But, to answer your question, the first oh shit moment on our end was when we had a fully designed website and nothing on the trial basis worked. And I literally mean nothing. And that’s important, our website, seeing that it is our store, and we since changed web providers two years in, but, another story there. And I don’t claim to be a tech guy. I’m knowledgeable, I’m not, and again, that’s part of it I knew I had to learn that stuff along the way. I had to do back website maintenance and so forth.

AK: Right.

RP: But, out of the gate when that didn’t happen, we had it neat and it looked great and then we ran some trial runs and nothing worked and we were about a week out from launching so we made some pretty firm phone calls to get that thing up and running, so.

AK: So you didn’t miss your launch date.

RP: No, we did not.

AK: You doubled down.

RP: That’s right. And there were still hiccups, right?

AK: As there always will be.

RP: Yeah, somebody told me and, I thought it was great, a friend of mine who is tech savvy said if you launch your website and nothing goes wrong, you’ve waited too long.

AK: Right.

RP: And I think that’s right. I think that’s accurate. Find me a business, large or small, internationally known or locally known that doesn’t have problems or hiccups and figures out ways to get around them. So, we’re no different.

AK: And when you originally launched, which, you know, I love the idea behind it, you had one color, right? And it was blue. And it was to support a charity that helped, I think, clean up or preserve the oceans, or something like that? I’m sorry, I’m getting all of this wrong, you can correct me. And then, you realized at some point that actually we could have multiple color belts, right, and we can probably serve multiple charities and not over index just on one.

RP: Yeah. So, just to clean that up a little bit. No, we did…

AK: Like I said, I’ll get it wrong.

RP: No, it’s fine. We did initially launch 5 different color belts.

AK: Oh, but the blue one was doing really well.

RP: Correct.

AK: That’s it, right.

RP: Each one representing our each of our 5 charities. The navy blue, it’s a popular color.

AK: It goes with pretty much everything.

RP: Right. And was tied to our organization Blue Ocean Society, out of Portsmouth, New Hampshire. And they were getting the lion’s share of sales and so we adjusted the model, again, learning along the way and on the fly that instead of donating 5% of each belt color sold to that specific charity, we split it 5 ways so 1% to each charity.

AK: How did that go over with…

RP: They’ve been great. And I think that’s an important piece is that the charities we did a lot of homework on and they all have organizations that hit really close to home for us and I won’t bore you with why.

AK: Maybe just list out the charities if you could.

RP: Sure, so I mentioned Blue Ocean Society out of Portsmouth, New Hampshire. Breast Cancer Alliance out of Greenwich, Connecticut. Thanks USA out of Alexandria, Virginia. They provide scholarships to the spouses and children to those serving in the Armed Forces. The National Canine Cancer Foundation and the Arthritis National Research Foundation.

AK: All very different.

RP: Very different but very meaningful to us. And I think, for example, Breast Cancer Alliance. My mother was diagnosed with Breast Cancer. Ashley’s grandmother was diagnosed and, in fact, the day our first son was born, my mother, pure happenstance was being operated on in the same hospital on a different floor, for breast cancer. So, for anybody who’s been fortunate enough to have children, I’d say especially your first, breast cancer took something from that day, right? A little bit. I literally was taking an elevator in between floors, in between recovery rooms. My wife to my mother and everybody’s okay now, which is great, but, and again there’s a similar story, maybe not details, but why it’s meaningful to us for each of the charities down the line. So, if we can do something through our business to punch back at breast cancer, you bet I’m gonna do what I can.

AK: And, my guess is that you and Ashley have always been kind of civic minded charitable people. The reason that I say this is cause very few people, and I’ve talked to a ton of people in different industries who have purpose as part of their mission and they give back, they all have genetically are predisposed towards doing good and doing well by doing good and doing good by doing well.

RP: Sure.

AK: So I imagine that’s part of you, too. It’s how you’re made up, how you’re brought up and its kind of what you feel like you need to be doing.

RP: 100% and I think it’s an easy answer on my end, oh, of course we’re that way, but we really are. And again, we’re both involved in organizations and philanthropic initiatives well in advance of launching this. So that was the, that was one of the starters of it all, right? We wanted to start something of our own and incorporate our personal commitment to philanthropy, and again, aren’t we very funny and out loud we said, how can we gel the two. And we looked at one another and gells.org was available for purchase and so forth and that’s as good a name as any for a company. But yeah, we love it, and as you noted on, with a busy house and kids and so forth, we have to love it in order to do it, to find the time to do it.

AK: And I imagine you went through the same exercise we all went through, which is, ok, is it available online and how do we get that domain? I mean, that’s part of it, right?

RP: Well that’s right and Gells, most people think it’s Gells and we have to correct them, and that’s ok.

AK: Not gonna lie, we had that discussion here. Is it gif, jif, you know.

RP: That’s right, that’s right. It’s a soft G, but it was available and gells.org jives with, you know, they tend to be associated with philanthropies and organizations and so forth.

AK: Sure.

RP: We joke that there’s no grand story. If it weren’t for our belt, well, climbing the mountains in Everest, we would have fallen off the cliff or something. There’s nothing like that, it was truly born out of desire. I think that’s something important. We wanted to start a company and we wanted to incorporate our personal commitment to philanthropy and so we pulled out of the driveway and did it.

AK: Yeah. Most, whether it’s Harvard Business Review, or any sort of book that you might read like, Innovators Dilemma, very few great ideas are aha moments. There are things that build and morph and evolve and get better. It’s this whole thing of rapid prototyping over time so I’m sure that these are discussions that you and Ashley have had multiple times in different variations and forms. And then, the aha moment was we’re gonna do this. We’re gonna put this llc or inc or whatever it is together, were gonna get the bylaws down and we’re gonna launch it.

RP: Yeah. It didn’t come without thought. Again, it wasn’t a fly by the seat let’s just create a company. I mean, we were quite deliberate in how we wanted to do it. And, we think, judicious. But we also knew and, again, no matter how much time we thought about it, there would always be snafus and speed bumps along the way and, again, I think every creator, entrepreneur expects that type of thing to happen and we knew that and so we didn’t get upset about it, right?

AK: I often say, it’s not what happens, it’s how you react to what happens. And having a life full of crisis communications management myself, I always tell my clients that, as well, right? And it goes for anything and everything, whether it was deliberate or something that happened to you, it’s how you react, right?

RP: Absolutely.

AK: So, is it just gonna be belts? Are you thinking about expanding?

RP: We have expanded. So we, we and again, it’s small business problems we need to be better about getting it out there. So, we have expanded to hats. A line of eco-friendly adult hats, both trucker and cotton twill and youth hats, garment dyed youth hats, so…

AK: Is there SPF in these hats for bald guys like me?

RP: Unfortunately, no, but you wear a hat outside of the house with breath holes, you’ll be just fine. Uh, no.

AK: Tell my dermatologist that.

RP: Right, so we have expanded to that and those are doing well and we have other products in the queue but again we’re very methodical about when launching products and how we’re gonna launch them and why, right?

AK: Yeah.

RP: I mean, sometimes, people launch a product just to have a new product and we really want to make sure that it jives with our brand and our look and so forth.

AK: I don’t know anything about apparel manufacturing but I imagine that there’s a calculus involved, degrees of difficultly in terms of manufacturing belts and hats versus shirts and shorts and I can’t imagine it’s all the same. It’s just, right? There’s gotta be different kinda considerations you have to weigh before you introduce a new product line.

RP: 100% I’d say any apparel company, and I think there’s some that are doing an incredible job, because sizing is an issue, right? And now you see more fitted clothing lines and otherwise, and everybody’s different. Belts are no different, we worked around that a little bit in that our belts are a slide buckle. So we have small, medium, large, XL as opposed to the waist 26, 30.

AK: I’m all about the slide buckle. I’m a fan.

RP: Yeah, and you know, hats, we have a little bit more room to play I think at one time they used to say one size fits all, now it’s one size fits most, but, you’re right, if there were shirts and so forth and all that, we’d have to consider that and that maybe down the road, but that’s not in the, no.

AK: Right, totally different.

RP: Yeah.

AK: What is the future, when you say down the road? Are you gonna add more charities? Are you gonna stay with the charities that you have right now? I imagine you have interim plans, longer term plans.

RP: Yeah, so, both from the business side of the house and the for profit side of the house, right, I mean those are equally as important to us and so we don’t want to make sure that one gets ahead of the other.

AK: Right.

RP: And there’s a balance there. And finding that is part of the job.

AK: I’m sorry, are you using any data to help you determine where the need is? I mean, obviously, appropriate use of data but I imagine you’re capturing buying patterns, behaviors, demographic data and that should also help inform, kind of, where you’re gonna go.

RP: Of course, yeah. From a product standpoint, yes, no, we have, I happened to remember right off the bat that navy blue was a popular color. So in terms of keeping organizations in the group and we call them partner charities and they are partners. They know us, they know that we just had twins. By and large, monthly calls with them and outside of the stated 5%, we really work hand in hand with them about other ways that we can be of benefit to them. And I think, if asked, what separates you from, whether that separates us or not ultimately is I don’t know, but that’s what we’re trying to do, is really be good partners to them so we’ll company product to events they have. We’re now starting to host events.

AK: Right.

RP: We hosted an event this winter at a brewery in town, we’re having a golf event later this month for each one of our 5 charities but that I think is important. And we do what we can on social media to raise awareness for their events. We participate, I mean, we literally…

AK: Yeah, you’re authentic partners.

RP: 100%. We’ve literally packed up our kids at the time, not this year because Ashley was pregnant, but last year, driven up to Rye, New Hampshire to clean up Janis Beach for Blue Ocean Society in early April and let me tell you, Rye, New Hampshire in early April is not you know, Savannah, Georgia in early April. It was cold, it was wet…

AK: It’s like Westport, Connecticut in February.

RP: That’s right. But it was meaningful to us and I think that just delivers on the point, again, on how we try to be good partners. It’s not just a donation, it’s really keeping involved with them and being active. There is no boilerplate template that we are following. And that, again, is part of the fun. Month to month it could be something different of how we’re interacting and helping them.

AK: Right, right. How do you do it all? You’re a father of 4. You do have a full time job at an investment company. You have this venture, which you speak very passionately about, not surprisingly. A lot of people want to be you. They want to do what you’re doing. Maybe in obviously a different format, a different industry, but I think the gating factor to them doing this is just time. Right? So how do you balance it all, how do you do it? And, by the way, no one can see us but you don’t look that tired. You look pretty good.

RP: Oh, well, thank you, but, look the short answer is I’m still learning. But the longer answer is managing expectations on my end. I’m someone who, nobody’s more competitive with me than me, right? And I think, out of the gate, there was a control, I need to make sure that XY&Z is taken care of at all times. And Ashley’s a great partner in life and in business, and so forth, and we’ve set it up so far that, again, it’s managing expectations day to day, week to week, month to month. And establishing goals, right? Because I think as you pointed out earlier, that helps you keep on track. It’s easy to say lets do this and not put a date on it and time goes by and, look, we knew we were having twins so we knew that would, from a product development standpoint and from a distribution standpoint, you know that’s kind of a week by week day by day thing. So the first kinda third of this year, when Ashley was, frankly, a little bit more stationary, we worked on these events and planning these events for our partner charities, right, something we could do more remotely. So, like I said, we’re still learning, but it’s certainly still worth it and we’re having a lot of fun with it.

AK: You might not be able to answer this question, but, there’s got to be a point at which you maybe devote your entire time to this, right?

RP: Yeah, no, I can’t answer that and there’s a certain level, well let me back up and put it this way. We’ve grown organically up until this point in time. Word of mouth, we haven’t had any robust marketing plan, and so forth, referral basis and that’s been great but we’re starting to get to that point where…

AK: If you want to scale.

RP: We’d like to scale, we have to, you know, think bigger as they say, so if there is a specific catalyst, right, if there is as you put I think, an aha moment or an aha situation where it certainly is visible and I tend to be, I don’t rush into decisions, right. Again, I’m very deliberate and very kind of methodical, if there tends, especially now with 4 kids, if there is something that could provide a clear path to runway, and so forth, then I think that would be the catalyst that would get us going.

AK: When you’re putting these products together, how much emphasis are you putting on kinda style and fashion versus function, because, from the outside, everyone’s like it seems so straightforward and then for us entrepreneurs and business people whether you’re in professional services or media or apparel or investment, everything’s far more complicated on the inside. There’s so many micro decisions you have to make that lead to macro decisions then lead to you being or not being performative. And one of the things I’ve learned in speaking with lots of companies is there’s this great debate and tug on how good does the product really need to be because why are people buying it? Is it because it’s beautiful and functional? Or is it because, yes, it meets those thresholds but just meets them but the real reason that I’m doing it is that there’s a giveback? So I often say people, especially millennials, buy from good companies. They like good products too but their first criteria is the company good, right? How do you manage that tension?

RP: Yeah, no, it’s a good question and one that I’ve thought a lot about and you’re right there’s a product side and the do good side and why are people buying, right? That ultimately is the question. And I believe, this Is my opinion that out of the gate, the product has to stand on its own. I think that especially upfront, right? You could design a new pencil, and you know maybe it’s a great pencil and for every pencil sold, 5% gets donated to schools or what have you. But obviously, there’s going to be a premium, you’re going to have to make it special and so forth and will people buy that pencil, or will they buy the dozen at the check out at the supermarket?

AK: Right.

RP: I think as the company grows that weighting shifts a little bit, right? When people really start to learn who you are, what your brand is, and that you’re authentic to your brand and care truly about those causes and the good you’re trying to create and do, I think that’s when people, again, become more comfortable with your brand.

AK: And loyal to the company.

RP: Well, to the company, yes.

AK: And to the cause.

RP: And to the cause. They have to know that you really are behind it. Look, it takes a long time to build a brand, a brand that people trust and, again, that’s critical to what we’re trying to do, we’re trying to build a brand. If we do everything right, we’re a brand, we’re not a belt company.

AK: Right. Yeah, I mean I feel like the product, especially if it’s good, can be the bait, but the idea is that you want them to get behind the company once you’re in the door, right?

RP: Yeah, and you touched on it. The product, how neat and fancy does the product need to be or does it need to be functional? And I think with us, look, we joke all the time that we created a belt and it’s not one that can fly out of a force if you get caught in a pinch or anything.

AK: It’s not a smart belt that’s like, you’re eating too much, stop eating.

RP: No, that’s right. It’s just that, it is a belt. But one that we think is classic in look, functional, look I’m wearing it today with a sport coat in New York City. I’ve also worn it splitting wood in our backyard. Playing golf…

AK: You split wood? Doou use a splitter or you’re really splitting the wood?

RP: I swing an axe. I’ve been known to swing an axe. Or playing golf, or whatever the case so, yeah, it’s a functional belt that people can wear in a variety of situations. That’s it. Yeah, and ok, by the way, we have these five neat causes attached to it, so, our company tagline is Feel Good About Your Look, right?

AK: I like that.

RP: So you want to feel good wearing it, regardless of if it has a philanthropic mission attached to it. But, hey, by the way, isn’t it pretty neat that it does, as well.

AK: And, you are actually addressing function because it is a multifunction, literally, no pun intended or maybe pun intended. You could be on the golf course, you could be in your backyard splitting wood, you could be at a meeting with an investor or a client.

RP: That’s right, and on the kids side, likewise. We’ve got two little guys, we noticed they need new belts and we put them on it and the belts could go in the wash, so parents, it’s happened on our end and it doesn’t matter. Again, we wanted to be functional, practical look good and those were the core and the tenants, if you will, to establishing the product. And then we have, of course, the charitable side of it is the key cog as we move forward.

AK: I always learn something new about people when I do these things that you’re able to swing an axe.

RP: Sure.

AK: You have all your toes.

RP: Indeed.

AK: So you’re relatively good at swinging an axe or you’re not too bad, I guess.

RP: That’s a broad daylight activity for me.

AK: Good workout.

RP: It is, actually. The workout is hauling the wood, after.

AK: I imagine you learned that skill when you’re in Vermont, right? That’s a Vermonter thing.

RP: Yeah, I think up there they throw them more than swing them, but I didn’t quite get down that path. But, yeah, no, it’s good.

AK: I told you earlier, my wife grew up in Northeast Kingdom, Vermont and I started stacking when we moved to Westchester County. We’re in Northern Westchester, right on the Greenwich border.

RP: Yeah.

AK: I was stacking wood, this is years ago, and she was like, get out of the way. You don’t know how to stack wood. I’m like this Jewish guy from New Jersey, what do I know about stacking wood? Right?

RP: You’re like, it’s a good workout?

AK: Great workout.

RP: Yeah, I’m gonna take a picture of the stack.

AK: Especially when it all falls down and you have to redo it. You get another workout.

RP: Yeah, that’s right. And you get mocked by your wife.

AK: Constantly. That’s her job. 22 years of it, now.

RP: Yeah.

AK: So, listen Richard, it was great to have you on. Again, we can find you at G-E-L-L-S-dot-O-R-G?

RP: Correct.

AK: Okay. Got it right this time. Good luck with everything, I hope to have you back on again one day soon.

RP: Well, thank you for having me, it’s always great chatting with folks like yourself.

AK: Keep doing what you’re doing.

RP: Indeed.